NELG

chex wrote: It's nice that no one here thinks less of me because of my circumstances, but that shouldn't be an issue to begin with. There are some who would condemn me for having the abortive procedure under the assumption that the pregnancy was in my uterus, while the pregnancy was still progressing.

I`ll be a little less eloquent than the rest of the posters here

It's none of anyone else's smurf business. Whatever morals a person decides to live by should be used to make desicions about what they do in their own life. Not to judge or dictate to others over shazam! that has no effect them whatsoever

I enjoy your bluntness.

If you are talking about choice you should firstly check wheter the baby's choice is to be killed.

Except abortion isn't about killing babies. It's about ending unwanted pregnancies before they become babies who are born to a family who cannot afford them, or who cannot take care of them for whatever reason. It's about sparing women 9 months of hell because their birth control failed. It's about letting families choose when or if they want to expand and making sure that every child is wanted. It's about not putting children into an already overcrowded system. It's about letting women make a humane choice for a wanted child, if there is something wrong with the fetus.


Baby:


Not a baby:



And I know the guest will probably never come back and read this, but I don't care. That argument pisses me off.

Me too
*Hugs Chex*

How would you precise the moment when a "pre-baby" becomes a baby?

Is that the extent of your debate? Posing questions to make others defend their viewpoints, but never being able to back up yours? Because that's an easy game to play.

Do you celebrate your birthday or your conceptionday?
Who plans on paying for all these children? You?
When was the last time you adopted a child to ease the burden on the taxpayers (welfare, etc.)
How about a special needs child? Adopted any of them lately?
Are you going to go through the pregnancy for the woman who isn't allowed to abort?

Oh, and there are lots of terms for your expression "pre-baby". "Pre-baby" implies that it will become a baby, which is not always the case. At least be factual, rather than trying to pull at ones emotions. Blastocyst, zygote, embryo and fetus are all accurate, depending on how far along the pregnancy is.

"Baby" isn't a medical term, so it cannot be put in this sequence. I asked you a question and you haven't answered it. I know all the stages of human development precisely, I'm a physician. And I know that this development is so smooth that you cannot precise wheter the being has already became a baby or not. The only thing that we can be sure about is that this being is a living being. A living human that develops from a cell to a mature man or woman; a short part of the development takes place in the womb, the longer part - outside. The definition of a human does not include the number of cells it should posess. Even if a living consist of one living cell, but it has a unique human DNA and own methabolism - it's a human.

If, as you say, you cannot precise that moment, why would you bother asking?

And if, as you say, you cannot precise that moment, then everyone would define it differently. Some might say from conception. Some might say from the first heartbeat. Some might say from the first measurable brain waves. Some might say from birth. Since it is immeasurable, and clearly, the woman IS a full human being, she needs to be able to decide whether or not to host an occupant for nine months.

And again,

PL pride wrote:A living human that develops from a cell to a mature man or woman

this is not always the case. Even without abortion, it merely has the potential to develop into a mature human. As a physician, you should know that.

And I believe you have questions awaiting you.

chex wrote:clearly, the woman IS a full human being

I wouldn't be so sure about it. Maybe there are some people who believe that a female human personhood begins after giving birth to the first child.

chex wrote:she needs to be able to decide whether or not to host an occupant for nine months

In my country people rhyme: "Kto wypina, tego wina". It's hard to translate it literally. It means something like: "The guilty one is the one who sticks the butt out". I know that some conception can be caused by a rape. However, this can be called bad luck.

http://statichg.demotywatory.pl/uploads ... fa_500.jpg

I certainly hope those same people would say that a male is never a full human, then. And I guess they would say that infertile women are never a full human either? Of course, even if people do say that, they wouldn't believe that the developing mass of cells is a full person either, so being against abortion in that case would be complete and direct hypocrisy.

Or was that just a pathetic attempt at a cheap shot?

And there is nothing guilty about partaking in a basic human urge.

Still avoiding your list of questions?

And Ali, no. This is a debate going on in a debate section. Debates aren't just "this is my opinion, let's agree to disagree."

This is more debate that earlier posts were!

We are all friends, so it seems we worry more about not hurting each others feelings, rather than actually getting into the issue.

PL pride wrote: I asked you a question and you haven't answered it.

chex wrote: Do you celebrate your birthday or your conceptionday?
Who plans on paying for all these children? You?
When was the last time you adopted a child to ease the burden on the taxpayers (welfare, etc.)
How about a special needs child? Adopted any of them lately?
Are you going to go through the pregnancy for the woman who isn't allowed to abort?

Still unanswered.

PL pride wrote:How would you precise the moment when a "pre-baby" becomes a baby?

I'll answer it. You don't. You don't "precise" anything that grows so smoothly. You have to way the Pros and Cons, and that's when the debate comes in.

Yes, a lot of pregnant mothers will refer to the developing fetus as a baby, myself included. I'm fully aware that it's not a baby yet, but I'm also fully intending for it to be a baby. Hell, I'm fully aware my five-year-old isn't a baby, but I still call her that. When I was mourning my miscarriage a few years ago, I would say that I lost the baby. I was mourning the baby that could have been.

My issue with the term "pre-baby" was that it was clearly an attempt to get an emotional reaction. It's a lot more emotionally charged than using the actual terms. "Killing a pre-baby" sounds a lot worse than what it actually is: aborting a fetus.