Gun deaths

[sizz]

EVERYONE'S FAVOURITE TOPIC! no really, I don't want a debate hence I didn't put it in debate section but I just came across something interesting. I feel like there must be a thread on this somewhere so apologies if there is, but I was wondering what you guys think regarding this article on gun deaths/gun laws generally? Also do most people in the US agree with the stance on guns in their country?

I'm just curious because as you can probably imagine everyone in the UK pretty much has the same opinion - a cultural thing, I guess. I really don't get why you wouldn't think that adapting the laws and making them tighter to try and curb gun ownership would be a bad thing?

[personguy]

i am now poker-facing.

[Wesley]

The United States had a huge period of growth in the early years -- this involved exploring the Wild West and the Great Unknown and having a gun on your side. Imagine a Cowboy without a six-shooter. Yes, that was over a hundred years ago, but these attitudes and assumptions and preferences are slow to fade. The counter argument to gun laws is that criminals don't check the laws and will get a gun anyway, but this does not address casual gun use such as the tragic loss of Phil Hartman when his wife took his legally owned gun and shot him with it.

Anyway, this big reason this debate continues is that there are so many opinions rather than a consensus. And it is not just yes or no, it has many different shades. I am all for gun ownership with stricter laws, since I have never committed a crime. But there are those who feel curbing the ability to acquire guns is unfair and un-American. In my opinion, these people take it a bit to the extreme. With fewer guns there will be fewer gun deaths. Period.

Now, to be thorough, look at total deaths. Guns, knives, GBH, etc. Last time I looked, the countries with low gun death rates had higher stabbings. It is a weird balance... criminals will be criminals.

[Shay]

Guns and gun laws are a hot topic in America. There are a large number of people that are adamant about their 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms. The moment you start talking about stricter laws, everyone gets their panties in a bunch and immediately assumes you're trying to take away their right as an American citizen.

I actually conduct extensive background checks and make determinations on whether an individual is eligible for concealed handgun permits for a living. Back before I took up this job, I was one of those people that was all gung ho on the same notion. However, let me tell you that having this job now is a huge eye opener on so many levels. You learn a LOT about the justice system behind the scenes and I must say it is extremely frightening. You also learn a lot about the gun laws and what constitutes someone as eligible for a firearm.

In the last week alone, I have been forced to approve three different CCW permits for individuals who have committed sexual assault against minors in the 1st degree (the worst offense of all sexual assaults). Last month I had to approve a permit for an attempted murderer in the 2nd degree. I have issued permits for individuals you knew full well should not be allowed to own a gun based on their background check, but because our laws here in Nebraska are too lax, I could not deny them and they later committed serious crimes shortly afterwards. The most disturbing for me personally was the individual who shot and killed his wife with two shots to the head the very day I issued his permit.

And that's just for concealed carry permits. That's not even touching the purchasing permits which are ridiculously easy to obtain. We take 45 days to conduct in-depth checks on our concealed carry permits. Purchase permits are essentially instantaneous. It's a quick NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System) which is essentially just running your name against the FBI national record to see if you hit on any Federal disqualifiers:

(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year
(2) who is a fugitive from justice
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution
(5) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship
(8) who is subject to a court ordered protection order against a domestic partner
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence

And for (5) it only counts if you were ordered by a judge as being mentally unstable and committed involuntarily. If someone is getting arrested for overdose multiple times, had many reports to the police of mental concerns, or if they were voluntarily commited to an institution, this does not count as being ineligible.

So essentially as long as you're not a felon, you're a citizen of the united states, and you weren't proven in a court of law of beating your significant other, guns are free game! And let's not even get into the fact of how easy it is to get any of those items set aside or pardoned completely nullifying the conviction...

All in all, I find our current gun laws highly absurd.

[sizz]

Zot, I guess the cultural thing is, as much as I disagree with it, understandable. The point that I don't think reeeeeally is a proper reason to keep laws as lax as they are is how if someone wanted to hurt someone and didn't have a gun, maybe they'd find another way with another weapon. Yes, who knows, maybe some types and methods of crime would increase if gun ownership was lessened, but overall if there were less guns there would be less opportunities - and these mass shootings would be, well, more difficult to do I guess. Which would only be a good thing.

Shay, that's both eye-opening and insane :/ I just… I mean, I knew it was a lot more common to have guns in the US but I didn't realise it was THAT easy. If it's like that, then I 100% expect people committing crimes involving guns to be a common occurrence - which quite frankly is pretty awful in a country as developed as the US. Also, the fact that you work in the industry that you do and have a similar opinion to me shows where the problems are I guess.

I love your country but the gun policy is crazy. From what I gather Obama is trying to do something (a good thing) about all this, but I guess if he goes too far he'll probably lose a lot of support, which is a shame because he's great (not that I know much about American politics, but this is my impression).

[bella]

People are afraid because of all the shootings taking place, therefore they arm themselves. It's a vicious circle, criminals use weapons, you buy one too to feel safe again. It's a cursory feeling, going to public places or events with many people becomes possibly risky.
Fear creates fear. It has come to a point where reducing the rights to bear a weapon becomes a near to impossible endeavour. Would you like to hand in the weapons you have? No, because there are criminals out there who could possibly shoot you. History might have lead to this but as long as you can't feel save gun laws stay the way they are.
Especially since the gun lobby has such a huge influence on politics.
By the way, Colt has recently filed for banKruptcy. Interesting twist.

[sizz]

This is a slightly different topic, (okay, very different topic) but talking about carrying a gun to defend yourself I read an article where (american) girls were showing what they carried to protect themselves - little keyrings for self defence, and pepper spray, things like that. Some of the comments even mentioned guns and knifes. This is, of course, more of a rape culture thing - not really to do with gun deaths at all but it's sad and shitty how it's come to the fact that people (well, women really) feel so vulnerable when out alone because of the goddamn way society has gone. The fact that some women have to carry GUNS implies it's pretty likely that they'd come across an attacker with one too. HUMANS EH. It's illegal to carry any of these weapon things in the UK I think but a couple of my friends carry rape whistles.

[Beany]

There's one thing you're allowed to carry in the UK, which is this spray dye stuff to distract an attacker's attention and also because it doesn't come off for like a week it makes the person more obvious to police after reporting.

But no, we're the country who aren't allowed to keep protective weapons in our own homes (like people who keep bats by their beds) - totally not just getting all this from Sarah Millican. You're allowed to keep a bat by your bed if it's accompanied by something it'd usually be used with, so as long as you have a ball there it's deemed acceptable.

I know it's awful that people feel the need to carry knives and guns for protection, but it's even worse when it's against the law to even carry pepper spray for self-defence.

[sizz]

I don't think i'd ever carry a weapon around. I live in a fairly safe area though. But I do often walk home alone between midnight and 5am (which is probably the 'dodgy' time) and do feel pretty vulnerable and unsafe, so have considered getting an alarm or something.

I didn't know about the spray dye stuff but that's quite a good idea too!

[LaLou]

My daughter has a smurf spray in her purse.

[Clarence]

Poor Clippy, the latest victim of guns.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Nothing real to contribute. Walking away now

[personguy]

My daughter has a smurf spray in her purse.

what?

[LaLou]

Blue spray, in case she gets attacked. Never heard of the Smurfs?

[personguy]

Blue spray, in case she gets attacked. Never heard of the Smurfs?

Yessss...

[Moe]

I don't think i'd ever carry a weapon around. I live in a fairly safe area though. But I do often walk home alone between midnight and 5am (which is probably the 'dodgy' time) and do feel pretty vulnerable and unsafe, so have considered getting an alarm or something.

I didn't know about the spray dye stuff but that's quite a good idea too!

I wouldn't be against the idea of myself owning a gun, but I probably wouldn't carry it everywhere.
My brother has a gun, and he almost always has it with him.

[Shay]

I wouldn't mind owning a gun. I almost bought one a few years ago. But it has little to do with the need to carry it around everywhere. My current significant other is not a fan of guns and I will likely never end up getting one unless I become a private investigator.

[Wesley]

Here in the forum you may or may not know that I am a shooting enthusiast. I like sport shooting; that is targets rather than animals. I have a few guns in my house, but I do not carry one on my person at all times like some kind of paranoid weirdo. I have a concealed carry permit, but it is more for transport to and from a shooting range and/or special occasions.

[Shay]

That is exactly why I wanted one. I really wanted to go to shooting ranges with my old buddy.

[sizz]

Yeah I think sports is a different case, I mean even some people in the UK do shooting for leisure or competitions (the upper classes mostly). It's just the point that Shay made about how easy it is for people to get guns no matter what they're planning to use them for that is ridiculous.